tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5757790087474609097.post5625788289031081718..comments2023-10-15T10:56:10.638+01:00Comments on Sheffield Quakers: Quakers and ChristianityGordon Fergusonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06021696929176035226noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5757790087474609097.post-73741521267068156992008-12-07T17:47:00.000+00:002008-12-07T17:47:00.000+00:00I love your beautifully written post here Janey. I...I love your beautifully written post here Janey. It seems obvious by the number of comments that it speaks to many of us. Thanks for articulating your ideas so clearly. It's given me a lot to reflect on and speaks to me too.chrissie hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12543936368759356904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5757790087474609097.post-63410041987594523582008-11-27T08:46:00.000+00:002008-11-27T08:46:00.000+00:00Dear BradI apologise for my tone towards you which...Dear Brad<BR/>I apologise for my tone towards you which I realise appears unduly harsh. Basically I was putting down the questions which had arisen when I read your piece and thus it turned out to be inappropriate in tone though I still have the questions which arose out of your comments about observing and participating in a broad range of Meetings.<BR/>That being said I realise that we must recognise our roots and not become purely a political lobby group.<BR/>In many respects I feel that it is part of the responsibility of the Elders and Overseers to maintain the spiritual life of the Meeting and thus the Society as a whole. Could part of the problem be in the fact that in some Meetings these roles are not adequately met?Peter Lawlesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11971060460707460714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5757790087474609097.post-89578610158783973222008-11-26T16:25:00.000+00:002008-11-26T16:25:00.000+00:00Dear Brad how did you observe Friends? Sociologic...Dear Brad how did you observe Friends? Sociologically were you a participant observer;someone plainly researching and made yourself known or in one of the many roles an observer can take? You say you participated but how? How did you go about sense-making in the situation as you seem to be able to make political splits amongst Friends? As an UK liberal Friend of 20+ years in membership I have never been able to make the distinctions which you have how did you other than a tee-shirt?<BR/>Are you generalising from the particular to the general? What was the size of your study group?<BR/>Basically what methodology did you use to support your argument?<BR/>I ask because though I can see issues within the Society I would not feel so strong in the evidence to support my opinions.<BR/>In Friendship<BR/>PeterPeter Lawlesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11971060460707460714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5757790087474609097.post-80884730801366005152008-11-25T18:17:00.000+00:002008-11-25T18:17:00.000+00:00Dear Gordon, This is my first footfall onto this p...Dear Gordon, <BR/><BR/>This is my first footfall onto this perilous terrain so please indulge me.<BR/><BR/>Ralph Waldo Emerson famously said that the (name and image) of Christ has been not so much impressed upon the civilisations of the western world as ploughed into them. Fox's appeal to the seed of Christ within gives rise to a religion that is essentially psychological and fully personal. There are levels of human psychological experience and you can move from one to another. If you stick with the essence of the Christ experience you will gradually undergo a metamorphosis in your thinking and experience of the world that I suppose is a mystical change in that it views more than one level of reality simultaneously and intuits causes behind phenomena in a way that is different to the ordinary. The outlook it engenders is singular because it amounts to adoption into a singularity.<BR/><BR/>As I said my main intention here is to see if this ends up on the blogsite. Please overlook the intrusion<BR/><BR/>HaroldAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5757790087474609097.post-83961080030506222132008-11-24T11:23:00.000+00:002008-11-24T11:23:00.000+00:00Brad,I could not agree more - this is the theme I ...Brad,<BR/><BR/>I could not agree more - this is the theme I explore in my recent blog 'Persons and Functions' (http://sheffieldquakers.blogspot.com/2008/11/persons-and-functions.html) and one a year ago 'Politics and Community' (http://sheffieldquakers.blogspot.com/2007/12/politics-and-community.html)<BR/><BR/>I can empathise with your political dilemma as well. Amongst British Friends, being a small government, low personal taxation, free trade and globalisation supporting capitalist liberal does not go down too well, yet this is where my spiritual journey has led me to express myself politically.<BR/><BR/>We are indeed at a crossroads - are we a 'Religious Society or a Friendly Society' (sub title of "Our Quaker Identity", Alastair Heron, Curlew Productions 1999) (http://www.eden.co.uk/shop/our-quaker-identity-1186600.html) Mentioned here:<BR/>http://thegoodraisedup.blogspot.com/2005/07/quaker-identity-yearning-forming.html<BR/>and here: http://sheffieldquakers.blogspot.com/2007_10_01_archive.html <BR/><BR/>Unless our political position arises from out of our spiritual concerns, we will fall into being just another political agitation group. But going on demonstrations and waving banners and joining committees gains far more kudos than building up community through small untold (except in heaven) acts of kindness. <BR/><BR/>“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matthew 7.21-23)Gordon Fergusonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06021696929176035226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5757790087474609097.post-62257364386478940382008-11-24T01:27:00.000+00:002008-11-24T01:27:00.000+00:00What has been most interesting to me as I have obs...What has been most interesting to me as I have observed and participated in Quaker meetings of a broad nature is that, while there has been sharp and sometimes contentious reactions to the role of Christ, God and Atheism among Friends, there is often unity along political party lines to the point that people with differing opinions are not welcome. This comes on the heels of working with a variety of Christian congregations and organizations (mostly around HIV, but also touching on environmental issues, poverty, gay rights). With these groups, there was always unity on their theology, but differing opinions at the social justice and political levels. <BR/><BR/>I think Friends are at a crossroads after the last election. If what I saw at FGC Central Committee was any indication, I feel we need to gently step back from the politics (not the issues, but the politics). Often, it was pretty clear that were a Vote for McCain t-shirt to appear, it would not have been well-received, and yet within our own house we seem to be unable to have a healthy dialog about why we believe and stand for the things that are so important to us.Bradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14533747600725610845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5757790087474609097.post-16948008197006757962008-11-09T00:25:00.000+00:002008-11-09T00:25:00.000+00:00Today Friends often speak of their testimonies. Bu...Today Friends often speak of their testimonies. But early Friends spoke of all aspects as "our Christian testimony." Have many Friends cut themselves off from the roots of what today they call Quaker testimonies?<BR/><BR/>I know dozens of people who have left Quakerism not out of objection to anything traditionally Quaker but because of the failure to be rooted in Christ. A community is not enough. We need Jesus Christ.Bill Samuelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00752443575410023776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5757790087474609097.post-83490351960965210202008-11-07T01:54:00.000+00:002008-11-07T01:54:00.000+00:00I've been attending a meeting for about 9 months a...I've been attending a meeting for about 9 months and this post addresses an issue that is so upsetting to me. There are many things I love about Quakers and Quaker worship, but why have they turned on their Christian roots, to the point where now it is accepted if someone stands up in MfW and says Christianity is a "perversion"? (This happened in my meeting.)<BR/><BR/>"One Friend remarked that we appear to be treating the Christian tradition more harshly than we do other religious groups. Perhaps our desire to welcome refugees from other churches adds to this, and it feels good when people express their delight at ‘coming home’ and ‘feeling comfortable’"<BR/><BR/>I don't understand it. If the above is true, don't Quakers want Christian attenders also to feel comfortable and at home? Part of me wants to leave and go to a church where I can feel unapologetically Christian and not hear things that are precious to me be attacked (I already have to deal with this constantly at college and it is spiritually exhausting) but I don't like other churches' style of worship or the perceived need for indoctrination. And in many ways I love my meeting. All I want is to feel safe in meeting as someone who loves Jesus.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5757790087474609097.post-7229713635781307492008-11-06T13:19:00.000+00:002008-11-06T13:19:00.000+00:00Why is it that Quakers (at least the liberal sort)...Why is it that Quakers (at least the liberal sort) have become so afraid of words? Or is it that our spirituality has been infected by Political Correctness - it is one thing to engage socially without risking offence, quite another to speak plainly and truthfully in the context of fellowship and worship.<BR/>We are supposed to discover the deep meaning behind the smokescreen of words - even the bible merely points to the truth, so we say - after all that is the fundamental basis of silent worship. We do not want words to get in the way. But do the words associated with Christianity not point at the same deep truths as the words of Buddhism? or Paganism? or Native American Spirituality? What words are we to use? Is all meaningful discourse to be abandoned so that we retreat into the fragile shell of individualism, silently occupying our minds with who knows what? <BR/>Let me say this: ‘God’ (or whatever word/label/sound you choose to use) cannot fit inside the mind – there lies the loneliness of nihilism and the emptiness of atheism and the despair of alienation. It is in friendship and relationships that true spirituality is discovered. Are we to look blankly at one another, wondering pointlessly what we might mean? Or shall we limit our spirituality to relating to nature, brushing past one another in empty silence?<BR/>Not for me. We gain the full depth of spiritual meaning through discourse with one another, in relationship and worship, and to do that we needs must use words. So which ones?<BR/>For me, forcing all Christian language into the strait jacket of dogmatism very nearly destroyed any spiritual meaning. The ‘Truth’ was revealed, and that revelation was spoken and then written down, and any experience that could not be interpreted into this revelation was ‘of the devil’. But the experience was still there, for experience is prior to language, and indeed so is knowledge. After all what am I doing in that expectant silent waiting, if not waiting for knowledge? And then at times I am compelled to stand up and share this discovery – not with an expression of blank bemusement, but with words – faltering, unsure, words, since the knowledge that these words cannot convey the full depth of that discovery is at the very front of my mind as I open my mouth to speak. This is how I interpret the saying that ‘the words will be given to you’(Mark 13:11). Not some sentimental mystical experience, but the practical reality of shoe-horning the truth into the words available.<BR/>So I have no desire to abandon the use of Christian words, for this is what I am familiar with, both in my life and in my culture and language – instead the words have been transformed, since they are now pointers to that truth beyond words. Everything is now in its correct place – revelation is through experience, true knowledge is in the heart, and the mind knows its place.Gordon Fergusonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06021696929176035226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5757790087474609097.post-20035128636555779832008-11-06T00:14:00.000+00:002008-11-06T00:14:00.000+00:00It's humbling to hear that a public statement from...It's humbling to hear that a public statement from only twenty years ago is now considered so radical that it would divide meeting for sufferings, but I fear the same would be true for most liberal Friends bodies here in America. It's gotten so our institutions have become allergic even to the word "God." This cultural shift largely happened outside of any formal process. What was mainstream liberal Quakerism is now suspect.<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure how vague talk of strengthening spiritual roots is going to help. But I'm glad to see you sharing this. Talking about what we've seemed to have lost and about it's purpose and maybe our purpose is important. Thank you.Martin Kelleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06999620933648327663noreply@blogger.com